Hello Craig,
Excellent site with brilliant lessons and answers.
Question: Many Trinitarians argue that Genesis 19:24 is evidence that two
persons are addressed as, “Jehovah.”
Doing a Google search with, “Genesis 19:24 Trinity,” I have read a few
good explanations that refute the idea that the verse imply a trinitarian
interpretation.
How do you understand
these verses to refute the trinitarian interpretation?
Kindest regards,
Sezan
February 26, 2005
Hi Sezan,
Thanks for asking this question
Sezan. Before I can offer a refutation
to trinitarian interpretations, allow me to restate the trinitarian doctrinal
position. I will address the question
you asked about Genesis 19:24, a familiar argument presented by the trinitarian
camp, but first, I think it is prudent to lay a foundation that accurately
represents the overall context in which verse 24 appears. Your questions and comments are only a small
fragment of the trinitarian views regarding Genesis 19:24, because ‘triune’
dogma teaches the three men who approached Abraham’s tent near Mamre are, in
fact, the trinity! (Read Genesis
18:1-3). The doctrine of the trinity
teaches there is one God coexisting as three distinct persons; all three
persons are said to be co-equal, co-eternal, co-omniscient, co-omnipresent,
etc. This is no small point because
later it will be used to show how fragmented and contradictory the trinity
position concerning Genesis 19:24 really is.
Trinitarian doctrine
reasons that three men in the accounts of Genesis chapter 18 & chapter 19
refer to the trinity for the following reasons (all of which I disagree
wholeheartedly).
1. In Genesis 18:1 Yahweh appeared to Abraham.
2. In Genesis 18:2 Three men appear at the same time
Yahweh appeared to Abraham; trinitarians say this is one and the same as the
trinity, but merely a different type of manifestation. Each person is recognized as distinct,
corresponding to the triune nature of the Trinitarian Godhead. Trinity doctrine says God is divided into
three co-existent persons of God; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy
Spirit. All three are said to be
co-equal, co-existing as one, and therefore inseparable.
3. In Genesis 18:3, Abraham addresses these three men
using a singular noun saying, “My lord (singular)…” Trinitarian teaching
asserts this is the Triune God appearing to Abraham as three persons in what is
called a, ‘tri-theophany,’ or ‘three-in-one divine appearance.’
4. In Genesis 18:5 the 3 men speak collectively to
Abraham in acceptance of his hospitality to them; trinitarian doctrine says
this proves the trinity because it illustrates how one God is a ‘united one’
(i.e. – meaning a united three-persons-in-one-God Deity) and he (they) works
cooperatively as three persons, each distinctly God.
This is the basic
framework of the trinitarian argument.
Based on this explanation, we can refute this erroneous trinitarian
teaching quite clearly and readily.
Here’s the beginning refutation:
In Genesis 18:9 the
scripture describes the three men that ask Abraham where his wife is by using
the plural pronoun, “they.”
Genesis 18:9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, "Behold, in the tent."
In Genesis 18:10 however,
only ONE of the men speaks and promises Abraham “he” will return saying
to Abraham, “I will surely return to you at this time next
year…”
Genesis 18:10 And he said, "I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. NAS
There is a clear
distinction between, “they said,” in Genesis 18:9 and, “he said,” in Genesis
18:10. In 18:9 only two of the men ask
Abraham where Sarah is, but in 18:10, only one of the men says, “I will
return next year.” This distinction
means this is not the trinity in focus, otherwise the pronouns would not shift
back and forth from singular to plural.
Below Genesis
18:13-14 are first mention of Yahweh and are a continuation of one man speaking
apart from the other two men.
Genesis 18:13-14 And the LORD (Yahweh) said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 Is anything too difficult for the LORD (Yahweh)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son." NAS
This is Yahweh speaking to
Abraham, and it is the angel (singular) of Yahweh, whom Abraham recognized
because prior in earlier chapters of Genesis the angel of Yahweh appeared to
Abraham’s mistress and Sarah’s maidservant in Genesis 16:7, 9, 10, & 11
promising her she would bear children.
Later this same singular angel of Yahweh came to Abraham to deliver
Yahweh’s messages to him in Genesis 22:11, 15
Genesis 22:11 But the angel of the LORD (Yahweh) called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." NAS
Genesis 22:15 Then the angel of the LORD (Yahweh) called to Abraham a second time from heaven. NAS
Further proof this is not
the trinity involved is found in verse Genesis 18:14 where Yahweh speaks to
Abraham thru the angel (singular) of Yahweh using the singular pronoun, “I,”
NOT the plural pronoun, “we.” Yahweh is
mentioned and uses only SINGULAR pronouns for the remainder of chapter 18
Genesis 18:16-17 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 And the LORD (Yahweh) said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?” NAS
Abraham escorts all three
men on the way to Sodom; however only two of the men actually go into Sodom;
the other man (angel) speaks as Yahweh, and he uses singular pronouns in
Genesis 18: 17, “And the LORD (Yahweh) said, "Shall I…”
The other two men that go
down to Sodom are identified as, “angels,” whereas one man stays with Abraham,
and speaks to him as, “Yahweh.” This is
concrete proof that only ONE man (angel) is speaking as Yahweh, and the other
two are merely angels sent to accompany the singular angel of Yahweh in their
visit to and with Abraham and his wife Sarah.
The role of the two angels
changes when they go to Sodom to rescue Abraham’s nephew named Lot. They are being directed on a different
mission as agents acting directly on behalf of Yahweh to fulfil two purposes;
first, to warn Lot and rescue him and any of his family that pays heed to the
warning, and secondly, to act on behalf of and with the authority to use the
power of Yahweh to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with brimstone and
with fire.
Genesis 19:1-2 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, "Now behold, my lords (lords = PLURAL, not LORD singular), please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way." They said however, "No, but we shall spend the night in the square." NAS
These two “angels” were
the same men that had earlier been with Abraham and Sarah; the third man stayed
with Abraham. These two angels come in
the form of men, evidenced by the fact that Lot wanted to wash their feet. Angels appearing in the form of men is not
unheard of in scripture, because angels appear as men in numerous places
throughout both Old & New Testaments.
When Lot greets these two
angels, he addresses them by using the PLURAL noun, and saying, “My lords.”
Because Lots calls them by the plural, “my lords,” this proves there is no such
thing as the trinity in this context.
The Hebrew noun (adonay) that Lot uses to call these angelic visitors,
“lords,” is the common plural form of the Hebrew title of respect.
Adonay does not mean
divinity; it is a general Hebrew word to address someone of dignity, or someone
as, ‘master.’ For example, Sarah called
Abraham, “my lord,” in Genesis 18:12 using the same form of Hebrew word,
“adon.” Do you suppose trinitarian
dogma would identify Abraham as one member of the trinity, simply because his
wife Sarah called him, “lord?” Of
course not, but this shows the total absurdity of this false teaching.
Furthermore, the fact that
Lot addresses these two angelic messengers (sent in the form of men) as, “my
lords,” (plural), is absolute proof there is no mention of the trinity, because
the third person was not present with them, which by trinitarian standards
reduces their co-equality and their co-omnipresence to nothing.
Also, note in Genesis 19:2
the two angels speak to answer Lot and they said, "No, but we shall
spend the night in the square."
Because “they” use a plural pronoun, “we” while speaking collectively,
this is irrefutable evidence that only two angels exist in Sodom, while the
third angel who had earlier spoken to Abraham for and on behalf of Jehovah (or
Yahweh) is not with them.
The reason I mention this
is simply to point out that the three men or angels did not stay together,
which violates the fundamental doctrine of co-omnipresence taught by
trinitarian doctrine. Furthermore,
since one speaks as Yahweh, and they other two remain silent as he speaks, this
nullifies the trinitarian principle of co-equality amongst the three persons of
the triune Godhead.
The way this can be proven
is by looking at the Genesis 19:29, “Thus it came about, when God (Elohim)
destroyed the cities of the valley, that God (Elohim) remembered Abraham, and
sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in
which Lot lived.” Trinitarianism
teaches that the Hebrew word, “Elohim,” means, “a united one,” and is used to
represent the three persons of the trinity eternally united and
inseparable. Oops. Now two of the angels split off and went to
Sodom at the command of the angel of Yahweh that stayed behind with Abraham,
thereby nullifying the “united” three persons of the trinity.
The third angel, known
throughout the OT as “the” angel of Yahweh is mentioned separately and distinct
from these two angels. The third angel
stayed behind to talk with Abraham; he IS referred to throughout the last half
of Genesis chapter 18 as, “Yahweh.” This point will be mentioned again when I answer
your question concerning the use of Yahweh in Genesis 19:24. The other two angels were sent to rescue Lot
and his family from the impending destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
So far I have proven by
simple breakdown of plural and singular nouns and pronouns that there is no
such thing as the trinity with its err of three co-equal, co-omnipresent
persons of “God” in the context of Genesis chapters 18-19. The three men that came to visit Abraham and
his wife Sarah were two angels in the form of men, and a third angel in the
form of man, but with considerably greater authority, who speaks for and on
behalf of Yahweh, and is recognized as one and the same as the, “angel of
Yahweh,” throughout the OT.
This means that during the
initial meeting with Abraham and Sarah the other two men are angels sent to
accompany the angel of Yahweh to speak to Abraham. Perhaps this is so they can act as witnesses to the promise of
Yahweh to Sarah, that she would become pregnant and bear a son within the next
year. Following the meeting with
Abraham, one angel stays with him, while the other two angels are then sent
separately into Sodom to rescue Abraham’s nephew Lot and his family before the
city was to be destroyed by Yahweh THROUGH them (i.e. – thru these two angel Yahweh
destroys Sodom and Gomorrah).
Now let’s deal with
Genesis 19: 24; according to the information you gave me from the web site you
visited, the trinitarian interpretation of this verse is as follows:
TRINITARIAN VIEW: In Genesis 19:24 the scripture states, “Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.” The Trinitarian argument is this: One person of the trinity we will call Yahweh #1 rained brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah One person of the trinity we will call Yahweh #2 rained fire from out of heaven. They believe that because Yahweh is mentioned twice in one verse, the conclusion is that there is more than one person of God doing the raining of brimstone and fire.
I don’t know where they
find any reason to identify more than one person of Yahweh in Genesis 19:24;
neither the English nor Hebrew text supports their argument, and there is no
distinction by virtue of plural nouns or pronouns in verse 24 to support such
an interpretation. So the best way to
decipher any argument is to begin with context.
I can appreciate that you
are going about from one site to the next to find information, which is fine
and can be profitable. But I want to
help and encourage you take your level of study higher; therefore, my
suggestion to you is that you begin your own individual study apart from the
hermeneutics of others, as it is always the most gratifying and makes a more
vivid and permanent imprint of the word of God on your own heart and mind
because you had to personally dig for the truth. There’s an old saying that has application here; it goes like
this brother:
“Give a man a fish, and
feed him for the day; but teach the man how to fish, and he’ll feed himself for
a lifetime.”
You are a very respectful
and courteous brother, and I enjoy helping you out. My desire is to see you put to use the good mind God has equipped
you with to lay groundwork for future use by God as a teacher in scripture,
something woefully lacking in today’s church.
Read the context of Genesis 19:12-29 below, and then pay close attention
to the following:
Plural or singular nouns
(e.g. – “men” versus “man” or “angel” versus “angels” OR “angels” versus “the
LORD”) and pronouns (e.g. – “I, he, him” versus “we, us, they, them”)
Ask yourself, who is
speaking & to whom OR who is acting on behalf of whom?
I have highlighted in red
some of the key pronouns for your consideration:
Genesis 19:12-29 Then the men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; 13 for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD (Yahweh) that the LORD (Yahweh) has sent us to destroy it. " 14 And Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of this place, for the LORD (Yahweh) will destroy the city." But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting. 15 And when morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take your wife and your two daughters, who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city." 16 But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD (Yahweh) was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city. 17 And it came about when they had brought them outside, that one said, "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, lest you be swept away." 18 But Lot said to them, "Oh no, my lords! 19 "Now behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your lovingkindness, which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest the disaster overtake me and I die; 20 now behold, this town is near enough to flee to, and it is small. Please, let me escape there (is it not small?) that my life may be saved. " 21 And he said to him, "Behold, I grant you this request also, not to overthrow the town of which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there, for I cannot do anything until you arrive there." Therefore the name of the town was called Zoar. 23 The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But his wife, from behind him, looked back; and she became a pillar of salt. 27 Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD (Yahweh); 28 and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace. 29 Thus it came about, when God (Elohim) destroyed the cities of the valley, that God (Elohim) remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived. NAS
I think you’ll find the
answers to your questions self-explanatory if you carefully segment all the
words highlighted in red. Here’s some
simple refutations that easily and logically dispel the trinity myth:
Refutation #1: In verses 12 & 13
the men said to Lot… we are about to destroy this place, because
the LORD (Yahweh) has sent us to destroy it. " Recall now that the third angel who stayed
behind with Abraham was the angel of Yahweh.
He is the spokesman for Yahweh to whom these two angels refer when they
spoke to Lot saying to him, “the LORD (Yahweh) has sent us to
destroy it. " This is answer
enough to eliminate every trinitarian argument in the entire chapter of Genesis
19!
What proves these two
angels who came in the form of men are Yahweh’s representatives is how they act
on behalf of Yahweh’s command when granting Lot’s request. In verse 16 Lot has second thoughts
and he hesitates, so to save him the men (i.e. - the two angels) seize Lot’s
hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters.
As the angels take his
family by the hand, and lead them outside of the city, this act of deliverance
is described in the last half of verse 16 saying, “… for the compassion
of the LORD (Yahweh) was upon him (Lot); and they brought him out, and put him
outside the city.”
Here we see that “Yahweh’s
compassion” is demonstrated thru the actions of these two angels disguised as
men; keep in mind however, that these two angels are “sent by Yahweh,” so
therefore the reference to the “compassion of Yahweh,” is redirected to the
third angel that stayed with Abraham, because he is the auditory spokesman for
Yahweh (i.e. – he speaks directly for Yahweh).
This shows how scripture
sometimes uses the actions of others to describe the compassion of Yahweh, but
it certainly does not prove there are more than one person of God in a triune
Godhead, as purported by trinitarian dogma.
Refutation #2: In verse 17 it reads, “And it came about when they (the 2 angels) had brought them (Lot’s family) outside (of Sodom), that one said, (meaning one of the angels) "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, lest you be swept away." Since they are now outside of the city, the “one” speaking is the angel of Yahweh, who is the third angel that had remained outside of the cities, as he stayed behind with Abraham.
Even though only one of
the angels speaks to Lot, in a typical display of Middle Eastern cultural
respect, Lot responds to the one speaking by addressing ALL three of the angels
in verse 18 by calling to them, "Oh no, my lords!”
Safe temporarily outside
of Sodom and now in the presence of all three angels, Lot goes on to plead with
them in verses 19 & 20, to let him retreat to a smaller city nearby
saying, “"Now behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you
have magnified your lovingkindness, which you have shown me by saving my
life…”
This leads to my point in
verse 21, which reads, “And he (he meaning Yahweh) said to him
(Lot), "Behold, I (Yahweh) grant you this request…” Recall earlier that only ONE angel
spoke. The context does not say which
of the three angels is speaking for and on behalf of Yahweh, but the fact is,
only one speaks, and earlier this was the angel of Yahweh, so the logical
conclusion is that it is the original angel of Yahweh speaking again.
Because only one angel
speaks, and the other two angels said they had been “sent by Yahweh” to destroy
the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, the principle of co-equality in the triune
Godhead is ruined by this fact, because only one of the two angels speaks, and
the fact remains the other two personages are subservient to him, not co-equal.
Therefore, any alluding to
“Yahweh” twice in verse 24 is simply the two angels alternately working on
behalf and directly for Yahweh, who sent them with power to destroy the cities
with brimstone and fire. So simple even
a child could figure it out.
One last note about verses
13-14 when Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law. In verse 13 the two angels told Lot, “… for we are about to
destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD
(Yahweh) that the LORD (Yahweh) has sent us to destroy it. " In verse 14 Lot went out and spoke to his
sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of
this place, for the LORD (Yahweh) will destroy the city." As far as Lot knew, there were only two
angels involved, since he had not met the third one as the angel of Yahweh yet.
The fact then that Lot
refers to these two angels of destruction and deliverance collectively as,
“Yahweh,” blows the ‘three-in-one’ trinity argument out of the water! If the trinitarian dogma says this is proof
for more than one person of Yahweh in the context, then the blessed three has
been reduced to a mere two, and instead of a trinity, we now have a twinity!
That’s about all I can say
Sezan; I hope this is a helpful exercise for you to develop a system of your
own to break down verses easily and logically, thereby refuting the triune
nonsense the devil has foisted upon the Christian churches.
Craigo
Craig L. Bluemel - The
Bible Answer Stand Ministry (www.bibleanswerstand.org)
Always be ready to give a
logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you,
but do so courteously & respectfully.
1 Peter 3:15
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